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Iago's trigger has been triggered

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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:47 pm

Well, there is conventional thinking, and unconventional thinking. But not even everyone agrees on what "conventional" is. For example, I have read in multiple sources that 10-12 reps is the sweet spot for muscular gains -- including a few different places in M&F, like that four week mass gain program. You have read 6-10. Which is right? Whatever works. And yes, gaining muscle while burning fat is problematic, but I do not think that it is impossible. As far as weight goes, I have not lost a pound, but I can see some visible changes. So one way or the other, muscle gain and fat loss are balancing out. But endurance is definitely a factor here -- while normally I would expect to be dragging at this point (nearing the end of week 3,) strangely enough I am feeling a bit stronger. Pushing that hard seems to make the body better able to be pushed. Of course you would never want to do that exclusively, but I think that I can hold out for at least six of the eight. And afterwards I fully intend to go back to bread-and-butter.

The M&F routine that you describe does look interesting. Hopefully it will show up online by the time that I am ready to make the change.


How are you doing injury-wise now?
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:35 am

That is one reason why I never really worry about the scale (despite my mentioning weight in my previous post): Gaining, losing or not budging in weight isn't really indicative of progress, since muscle weighs more than fat, and a weight scale won't illustrate performance gains in strength or endurance. If you're in to it, take photographs. That will really give you an accurate story of what's going on.

There are a bunch of theories around muscle hypertrophy and I have also read the 10 to 12 rep thing. As you say, whatever works, but I find 8 reps the sweet spot for strength and size gains (stronger muscles generally need to be bigger). Powerlifters train toward a 1-rep max, working down from about 8 reps, but they also train in the higher rep range. For whatever it's worth, I train in all rep ranges, but I feel it important to aim for lower reps on compound moves (deadlifts I only go to 6 reps max, for example). This will seem rather light (maybe even inadequate to you), but here is my upper body workout, complete with weights and rest times between sets, from yesterday (I warm up before jumping in):

Weighted pull-ups: 3 sets of 6-8, with a 30-pound dumbbell, 2 minutes rest
Dumbbell shoulder press: 3 sets of 6-8, with 65-pound dumbbells (I could do a little more, but I am still nursing my shoulder), 2 minutes rest
One-arm dumbbell rows: 3 sets of 8-10 reps, with an 85-pound dumbbell, 1 minute rest
Weighted dips: 3 sets of 10 reps, with a 20-pound dumbbell, 1 minute rest
Giant set:
Dumbbell flyes
superset with
Hammer curls
superset with
Skull crushers: 2 sets of 12 reps per exercise, with two 40-pound dumbbells, 1 minute rest between giant sets

And that's it, expect for stretching. I do cardio separately. I included my weights only to show that I'm not trying to throw around a bunch of weight in the gym. Form is more important than weight. Speaking of weight, I do keep track and try to increase each workout (by small amounts like 2.5 to 5 pounds, depending on exercise).

My other upper body workout from earlier in the week hits things like flat and incline bench, and rows. Squats, deadlifts (including Romanian), and lunges I relegate to lower body days.

I will be looking to do a more intense workout in a couple of weeks, which I aim to stick with for about two to four weeks before returning to this. Then, I might give some Tabatas a go for a couple of weeks before trying the M&F strength program I mentioned.

Injuries? I'm getting old and crickety. I think I have carpal tunnel developing or something, so my right forearm is on fire. My shoulder is still tender from time to time, so I make sure to warm up and take a conservative approach to lifting. I would rather use a lighter weight and get the form correct than try for a higher weight and reinjure myself. I've been taking it slow and steady.

Keep in mind that many of the insane workouts we see aren't suited to natural lifters. Most of the high-volume routines work for guys who are running gear. Although it's a celebrity workout, maybe check out Wahlberg's Marked workout (it's free online). He has three, and all are pretty solid, in my opinion, and suitable for most lifters.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:37 am

Strange. It's appearing as though my last post didn't post, and yet it's there. Posting again only to update the last-post time.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:08 pm

Was my last post missed, or have I been put on ignore in this thread? Both are equally valid. Just asking.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:06 pm

Not at all. I just forgot to reply to it when I did the others. I had it open on a tab and must have closed my whole browser before I answered.


I had considered switching to a different routine this week (after four weeks on the other one) and even printed something else out (the fallback 6-week M&F plan) but when I got to the gym I changed my mind and decided to stick it out for two more weeks and go for six of eight. The weird thing is that the decreasing rest periods actually work pretty well, since the paired sets get longer. So, for example, at this point it is 5-6 reps of bench presses paired with 21-25 reps of dumbbell flyes, and 30 seconds of rest. But since the light half of each superset is an isolation move that is working the muscles for that body part quite differently than the heavy compound move, the time spent doing the light moves gives you extra rest for the main move. It is tough, but it does work.

I looked up Walberg, but there are a variety of workouts on the web for him, and some of them are pretty intense. His routine that he did to train for Pain & Gain looks pretty nasty. Do you have a link to the one that you are talking about? I also looked at M&F to see if they have the one that you mentioned, and I am not sure if it is there. If you have a chance, would you mind looking?

You may be getting older and more crickety, but you are still younger and less crickety than me! I do tend to have an issue with tendonitis in one elbow if I am not careful, and I get a painful ligament joining the bottom of the triceps to the elbow. Probably all the same problem. I can feel it sometimes when I am doing things like skull crushers -- I can literally feel the tendon snap, rather painfully. Prolonged rubbing makes it get better. I also have had a pinched nerve issue on one side of my neck, but that has been since my teens, so it is not age-related. It rarely bothers me while lifting, but I have to avoid certain things. Barbell shoulder presses can set it off (especially when standing.) But I have no problem with dumbbell presses, or with smith machine presses, so I just substitute.

But yes, warming up is the key. I always spend 10-12 minutes on a treadmill or elliptical before I start, and even doing a hybrid weigh/cardio program like this, I still give it 5-6 minutes, even just walking. Then I do five minutes or so of dynamic stretches -- never static stretches for warming up. It is all about getting the blood flowing. (Plus warmup sets on the first move for each body part.) And I while there are not many other lifters in the morning when I go to the gym, I watch those who are there, and to me, they always get that wrong. Some of them jump straight on the weights, and even the ones who do stretch just do static stretches, which belong at the end of the workout, not the beginning. Everybody's body is different, but I do believe that the dynamic vs. static stretches is an absolute, and one that people absolutely get wrong.


Only semi-related, but did you hear about the record that The Mountain from Game of Thrones just broke? (He also more recently broke another record by lofting a 56lb kettlebell 19 feet into the air.)


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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:10 pm

I cannot find it on Youtube, but here is the kettlebell throw:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2391582-game-of-thrones-actor-hafthor-bjornsson-breaks-world-record-at-arnold-classic
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:14 am

What a beast!

It might have looked like a typo, but I was referring to Wahlberg's Marked workouts (which are branded as such to along with his line of supplements). I had dismissed them at first, figuring they were just another celebrity workout thrown together to push sales of his product, but they are surprisingly well balanced. There are three workouts posted, available here: http://markednutrition.com/index.php?page=training. Click on each to download the PDF.

No dice on the workout yet on M&F's website. I don't have the magazine with me today, but I can email you the details.

I do like to do higher reps for isolation exercises, and I am a fan of supersets. I find them an easy way to up intensity and shorten the workout. Both a win in my world. I like to be done in 45-minutes to an hour, which is when our growth hormone peaks during a workout.

Sounds like we are both a bit broken. I actually can't use barbells for most things upper body. I find military presses a strain on my shoulders. Ditto for benchpress (I prefer dumbbells, which cause no pain and isolate the muscle better anyway, albeit at the expense of strength gains and some of the smaller muscle groups that will no longer be called into play). Barbell curls I simple can't do right now because of my forearm and elbow issues (I'm stuck doing hammer curls and rope curls, which don't call for a pronated grip). I can do upright rows after a proper warmup and I can do bentover rows if I'm careful and deliberate with my form. If I cheat at all, I'm asking for an injury.

While my tendon doesn't pop, my shoulders do. My doc thinks it is a sign of arthritis starting up.

I read an interesting article in M&F yesterday over lunch that got me thinking. It was written by an older athlete, and basically questioned why we go to the gym. He pointed out that the point of working out is to be healthy and that, unless we're competing, there really is no point in pushing the limit all the time, if at all. If I'm being honest, my goals are to look half decent and retain or gain functional strength, mobility and flexibility. I don't need to push myself to the point that I'm limping the next day. Likewise, the basics work, and the difference in results between the basics and more exotic movements and routines is marginal. I'm not taking my shirt off on stage or being judged at that level. I'm not sure anyone is judging me, other than myself. And if I was being judged like that, I'd have a long way to go. At any rate, it was an interesting reality check. The end message was nothing new: It's okay to train hard, but be smart and find substitutions if something hurts (just as you do and expressed in your last post, and I've had to do with barbells). I really haven't summarized the article well, but I suspect you caught the drift.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:04 pm

Got the Wahlberg one now, thanks. Those do look pretty basic and pretty decent. I also got he other one that you sent me, but that one is going to take some time to read through and digest.

I have been applying some IcyHot to the bad tendon at the base of my triceps, and that seems to help. I also ended up with a muscle spasm somewhere around my shoulder blade that has not stopped me from doing anything, but I need to be very careful with it. As long as I do not wrench it, it should go away on its own -- though I am getting a rub down in a few minutes.

Ain't aging grand?


In my case, I need a certain amount of pushing myself, and it has nothing to do with fitness. I am sure that I have mentioned before that regular exercise is critical for me to help keep the Beast at bay. To get the best effects, I really need a release of endorphins. Even when I take a single day off in a week, my head feels "wrong." There is no way to describe it if you have not experienced it. It is not a headache, but it is some of the same feelings that you get during one, just minus the pain. If I go light and just walk, I still get that feeling. So I never skip more than one day a week, and I try to push hard enough to get a pretty solid endorphin release, and then my head feels fine. That is another reason why I like running intervals on a treadmill -- it lets me push myself to speeds that I could never handle for very long, but even doing them for short intervals gets that endorphin release.

And for me, as you can no doubt guess, keeping the demon away is one of the single most important things in my entire life.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:59 am

The Wahlberg workouts are tougher than they look, when taken in context of the workout as a whole over a week versus the individual workouts by themselves. The gaining mass workout actually contains quite a bit of volume using big exercises, and trains the entire body twice in one week. I haven't tried that one yet, but I imagine it would be quite strenuous.

I hear you about pushing yourself, and I totally appreciate your predicament (even if I can't fully understand what you go through--I'm not sure anyone can, if they don't experience the pain first hand). That is one of the reasons why I like to train heavy every now and then and hit failure around the three-rep mark. That kind of training isn't geared toward gaining size, but it will tax the central nervous system and that results in a wonderful release of endorphins. It also makes us stronger.

There is another workout in the March 2015 M&F that might interest you more. It's Part 1 of their 2015 Rock Hard Challenge. The year's workout is an lower-upper split, with Days 1 and 3 being lower focused and Days 2 and 4 being upper focused. Day 5 is a total body barbell complex, done circuit style. The splits comprise supersets and trisets, so there will be limited rest. Here's Day 1, as an example:

A1: Trap-bar deadlift: 4 sets of 8
A2: Kneeling hip flexor mobilization: 3 sets of 10 (per side)

B1: Bulgarian split squat: 4 sets of 8 (per side)
B2: Ankle mobility: 3 sets of 10 (per side)
B3: Side plank: 3 sets of 30 seconds (per side)

C1: Single-leg hip thrust: 3 sets of 8
C2: Sumo squat stretch: 3 sets of 20 seconds
C3: Goblet squat: 2 sets of 10

Obviously some of the exercises drop off before the superset or triset is complete. Otherwise, there is mobility work built in. This particular workout doesn't look that bad, but again it's an overall volume thing. There is another lower-body workout on Day 3 and Day 5 is full body. They also have some weird exercises I've never heard of (e.g., scapular wall slide, glute march [WTF?]).

Day 5 is no easy pass. With a loaded bar and no rest between exercises:

Hang clean: 5 reps
Reverse lunge: 5 (per side)
Push press: 10 reps
Back squat: 10 reps
High pull: 10 reps
Romanian deadlift: 10 reps

They recommend starting with 65 pounds (the model of course is using 135 pounds!) and working up from there. Weeks 1 and 2 call for three rounds of this circuit; Weeks 3 and 4 call for four rounds.

Randy Couture followed a similar routine as this last circuit, but he also had his in-ring training.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:32 am

Funny that you should mention the WTF exercises -- I have been seeing a lot of those lately, with no explanation. You would think that the source would post an explanation of anything that sounds a little off-the-wall, but I wonder if there is a bit of elitism in not doing so. It is almost like they are acting like anyone who is anyone should already know. And the problem is that if you end up Googling to try to find the exercise, it often seems to be something different than what they are going for, so you never know if you are doing the "right" thing. I have sometimes ended up substituting something that I do know that seems to fit what they are looking for.

That is once nice thing that Stoppani does on his website: every exercise on his routines has a linked popup which brings up a small window showing the phases of the exercise, with a text description. Though sometimes even he just has a text description without the animation, and always on the exercise that seems the most confusing. M&F has actual popup videos on some things, but almost never on the ones where you really need them.


So after all that talk about age and injury, my tendonitis in the elbow/tricep is getting worse, and now a variant of the pinched nerve in my shoulder has cropped up farther down along the back (between the shoulder blade and the spine.) It gets worse overnight, as there is no way to sleep on my side without aggravating it, and that is the only way that I can sleep well. Though last night I just let myself fall asleep on the recliners in my home theatre room, and this morning it felt a bit better. So I have been hobbling my way through this last week, skipping or altering a few exercises as needed, with today as the final day. Then I plan to take a week off of weights next week and focus on pure cardio. Good time for that anyway, since spring is here. My bike is in the shop, unfortunately, but I will do a variety of things at the gym instead. That single week should be plenty to make the tricep/elbow problem go away, and hopefully I can get the back/shoulder under control as well (though again, sleep seems to be more of a problem for it than working out.)

That will give me a full week to read up on the Wahlberg workouts and the others that you have mentioned, and decide what I will do next.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:45 am

I'm deloading this week. I will still do some weight resistance training, but few sets and with light weight. I'll spend a fair bit of time on cardio and dynamic and static stretching.

I'm sorry to hear about your injuries. I know they are no fun.

I really dislike WTF names for exercises, particularly when they are a new name for an old exercise. There is no point to that. Now, if it's a new variation of an exercise, and there are positive benefits, then that's cool, but explain what it means. Imagine if there was no explanation as to what an Arnold press is. I'm stating nothing new; just ranting.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:35 pm

I guess that I would not even call them injuries. Pretty minor, but the time off helped to make them go away.

Strangely enough, instead of everything else that we discussed, I decided to try this 4-week plan that I found on M&F. It is pretty basic, but it seemed like a good way to go to get restarted after a week off -- and I can start hitting it harder after those four weeks. You will like the fact that it focuses on form and tells you to stop when you still have one or two reps left in you, to make sure that your form is correct. It is sort of a whole-body hybrid, with each day focusing on one body part (like the first day this morning, which was primarily legs) but includes other body parts and ends up with intervals for conditioning at the end:

http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-routines/4-week-foundation-workout
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:49 pm

You'll have to let me know how that goes. The interesting thing with beginner workouts like that is that you are no longer a beginner. That typically means that you're now moving more weight than a beginner, which puts more demand on your muscles and requires more time to heal. That might result in you finding the workout too much over time (as you work the muscles hard, but don't allow enough time to heal). Even though you note an emphasis on legs, I scrolled through a few days and it looks like each day is actually a full-body workout with emphasis on one or two areas.

Or, you might simply find it too easy, given what you're used to. I'm interested to hear your feedback.

I'm still doing a very light workout this week, as I deload and let my body reset. I find a deloading week every four to six weeks helps with injuries and also helps me get over plateaus. Unfortunately, I feel restless during these deload weeks, as I want to be doing more.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:00 am

I did not forget about this thread, but I ran out of time this morning. I will type up a full post later.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:07 pm

Not sure if I explained the previous workout that well, but yes, it is full body every day. I meant that there is an emphasis on certain body parts on certain days. The first day was largely legs, but other days focus more on biceps, or triceps, etc. The only thing that really got a workout every day was legs, and it was only one exercise on some days. Also, I have no issue with doing a "beginner" workout once in a while as a way to reset things. Sort of a different way of de-loading. Anyway, I did it for a week, but my problem ended up being one of volume. I just need more. I am still not liking how my head is feeling, so I want to hit something that pushes a lot more volume. So I switched the the four-minute routine from M&F that I have done before.

That is the workout where you do four minute long sets, and try to do 60 reps in that time. You pick a weight where you can to 15-19 reps, and try to do 60 reps on each exercise. You can pattern that out how you want, but what they suggest -- and it works best -- is you do one set to failure ("light" failure, of course,) then rest, do another set to failure, and so on, starting with 20 second rests for the first two weeks, 15 seconds for the next two, then finally 10 seconds for the last two. That way you have a planned progression to help you try to hit the goal. You may pull 45 total reps or so the first week, but keep pushing to try to hit the 60 by the end of six weeks. They also suggest taking a week at the beginning to find the correct weights and I know that last time I just guessed, but this time I did take a full week (I went three sets of 15-19, which gave me a few sets to fool with it until I was sure.) Pretty nasty, but in a good way. Everyone is different, and I actually respond well to this kind of thing. My intent is to do this to give me some volume and push muscular endurance, then take a light week, then hit heavy after that. I may try either the Wahlberg or the M&F one that you sent me. I think that I will do better with them after doing this first. You probably would not like it, though:

http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-routines/four-minute-muscle-program-0
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:37 am

Actually, I've done that workout a couple of times now since you showed it to me about a year or so ago. I quite like the pump I get after the workout, and I really like the endurance gains I get following. One of the things I struggled with was trying to follow the workout as prescribed with some exercises like Romanian deadlifts. I haven't had sciatic pain in some pain (knock wood), but at the time I was suffering pretty bad, so I simply couldn't get through 60 reps in four minutes, no matter what I did.

Once I feel that it's time to switch up, I actually had the four-minute workout in mind as a reset and gateway workout to something else. Not sure if you've heard of the Boring But Big routine. It's a variation on a 5-3-1 workout, and is geared toward getting that look you like (like Bane). There are two versions (the original and a challenge version). May or may not be up your alley, but you can check it out here:

Original: http://www.jimwendler.com/2013/05/boring-but-big/

Challenge: https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/boring-but-big-3-month-challenge
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:28 am

Those are good suggestions. Actually, plain old 5/3/1 is a good suggestion. I want to go heavy after the four minute plan, regardless. I bookmarked those pages and a few other related ones that I found to read and think about later.

Actually, reading Wendler's tips on weight selection reminds me of a guy that I see at the gym most mornings now. He lifts heavy, nothing but heavy, and straight to heavy. While I was squatting on the smith machine one morning, I watched him walk in the front door, change his shoes, walk straight over to one of the converging chest press machines, load 270lbs on it and start repping out. He certainly seems pretty strong, but he lifts like an idiot. I have long since stopped worrying about whether the weight that I am pushing looks good to others. Especially now doing the four minute plan, where I am sure that he looks at the weights that I am doing and laughs inside. But while he may be stronger than I am (he is certainly bigger than I am,) I seriously doubt that he could do 60 reps in four minutes at just about ANY weight.

But to Wendler's point, that is what I see in almost everyone who I encounter in the gym: they are using too heavy weights, cheating form, and probably getting nowhere.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:47 am

Those are good suggestions.  Actually, plain old 5/3/1 is a good suggestion.  I want to go heavy after the four minute plan, regardless.  I bookmarked those pages and a few other related ones that I found to read and think about later.  

Actually, reading Wendler's tips on weight selection reminds me of a guy that I see at the gym most mornings now.  He lifts heavy, nothing but heavy, and straight to heavy.  While I was squatting on the smith machine one morning, I watched him walk in the front door, change his shoes, walk straight over to one of the converging chest press machines, load 270lbs on it and start repping out.  He certainly seems pretty strong, but he lifts like an idiot.  I have long since stopped worrying about whether the weight that I am pushing looks good to others.  Especially now doing the four minute plan, where I am sure that he looks at the weights that I am doing and laughs inside.  But while he may be stronger than I am (he is certainly bigger than I am,) I seriously doubt that he could do 60 reps in four minutes at just about ANY weight.

But to Wendler's point, that is what I see in almost everyone who I encounter in the gym: they are using too heavy weights, cheating form, and probably getting nowhere.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:55 am

You can say that again.

I like to lift heavy (for compound movements), but not at the expense of form. I do increase reps, shorten rest time and do supersets, drop sets or giant sets with accessory movements. And with those accessory movements, I actually think weight is less important. Focusing on the movement and really squeezing each rep is more beneficial.

The nice thing about Wendler's plan is that while it's simple, it does call for moving onto 10-rep sets after going through the 5-5-5, 3-3-3 or 5-3-1 rep scheme with heavy weight. If the rest times for those subsequent sets are kept short (e.g., 60 to 90 seconds), there will be a serious burn happening, particularly since most of the workout is still compound movements. It will also help keep the workout short, which I think is smart.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:18 pm

Yep, I think that is the direction that I will take post-"four minute" workouts. But in the meantime, I woke up Tuesday morning with that most glorious of setbacks: the common cold. I lifted Tuesday, skipped my cardio day on Wednesday, and then lifted yesterday (shoulders) and today (legs.) Not my finest hours, these last two days. But I refuse to skip more than that one day, no matter how weak that I feel. I will not take any chances on letting my other issues develop.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:27 am

I hear you. Whatever it takes. I don't think every workout needs to be a ball-buster anyway. If you're battling a cold, lighter weights and a higher rep range, done a little easier than normal, will probably do you some good.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:40 pm

Funny thing, though, is that I forgot about how those four minute workouts sneak up on you. For example, I did the first one last Monday (chest/biceps) and really did not feel like I had pushed myself at all. I certainly was not hitting any kind of "hard" failure at the end of the four minutes, though I did average around 45-48 reps for most of the exercises, which is about right for the first week. I was a bit discouraged, but then I got up the next morning and really felt it, and more importantly, I really felt it the day after that. Now I never try try to push past "soft" failure on all of the sets up the the final one anyway, since you are only resting for a few seconds, but it seems like the there is an interesting cumulative effect of those near-failures that has the same impact on the muscles as doing normal sets to real failure.

I still have the cold, but I was stronger the last two days than I was all of last week, and I can already tell by how I feel after yesterday's chest/biceps that I am going to be really sore tomorrow. So, it is all working out (so to speak.)
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:51 pm

Delayed onset muscle soreness is a bitch!

I understand what you're saying. I like a little bit of soreness too. It's a reminder that you put in the work. Of course, going to the other extreme, and being practically crippled, tends to remind you that you overdid it, big time.
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Iago on Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:45 am

I would still say that if you are not getting any delayed onset muscle soreness, you are not getting anywhere. I am fully convinced of the efficacy of products like Afterglow, which does reduce the soreness by slamming glycogen back into the muscles right when they need it the most, but there still should be some ill effects later. But I guess that it is a largely a semantic question -- namely, how you define the word "soreness." The trick is knowing the difference between that kind of "tight" feeling that you get the day after a good workout, accompanied by definite discomfort when using the muscle. But that discomfort should never be actual sharp pain. That is why "no pain, no gain" is false, at least as I define it. I do not define the feeling of reaching failure as "pain," or the tightness/soreness later as "pain." Pain -- a real, sharp pain -- should always mean "stop immediately." The key is knowing the difference between that pain and discomfort. (Granted, people who do not work out would likely describe ALL of it as pain!)
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Re: Iago's trigger has been triggered

Post  Seamaster on Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:20 am

I agree. If I don't feel sore (i.e., a little stiff), I think I've done something wrong. I guess what I was referring to when I said overdoing it is when you wake up the morning and you find that you have to roll yourself out of bed. Or when you sit, you end up falling into the seat because your legs are in that much agony. Or when you're at that point that putting on a T-shirt becomes an exercise in contortion and extreme pain. I've experienced all. Some pain is necessary and makes sense because a good workout will result in micro tears to muscle fibres. But it should only be discomforting. For example, massaging the muscle should still feel good; it shouldn't be at the point where you don't want anyone to touch you.
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